To add my two cents worth, (and that's about all the value it is compared to comments already posted), I see "noir" and "hardboiled" as two basically different forms, although they may at times overlap. "Noir" is psychological, dependent on the character and personality of the protagonists, rather than their actions, and is dark, brooding, tragic. Even if the hero and heroine come out of the situation alive, they are not unscarred, if only emotionally. My favourite "film noir" is _Gilda_, which typifies the genre; another "film noir" classic, in my opinion, is _Nightmare Alley_. My own feeling is that "noir" as a quality is best applied to cinema, but does not readily fit the novel form. "Hardboiled" in contrast represents the attitudes of the protagonists: men and women who have lived and found that life is, indeed, "nasty, brutish, and short". They are truly tough -- tough in spirit, ready to self-defend, but not necessarily violent. They are people without illusions, either about themselves or others. They see the world in black and white terms and have decided that where Law cannot serve, Justice must be attained through vigilantism. "Hardboiled" is a literary form that does not really translate well to the screen where only too often it is misinterpreted as mere action and fisticuffs. Spade in _The Maltese Falcon_ is hardboiled, as is The Continental Op. Marlowe is hardboiled. Mike Hammer is a travesty. Here endeth the lecture for today. David Skene-Melvin, quondam Senior Lecturer, (i.e., Assistant Professor), in Popular Culture, who only too often forgets that he is not still in the classroom. P.S. Rara-Avis is the most intellectually challenging and stimulating discussion group I have yet found. I am greatly impressed by the contributions and commend Bill Denton for his creation. DSM - # RARA-AVIS: To unsubscribe, say "unsubscribe rara-avis" # to majordomo@icomm.ca