Patrick wrote:
"Kerry, I did not overlook these thought when you expressed them the first time. I simply don't find them in the text or subtext of either the book or the film. These are your own thoughts filtered through your own experiences and brought to the media you perceive."Not JUST Kerry. I agree with his analysis. Spade loved Brigid, but he refused to play the sap for her. I find it amusing that you believe maturity makes us immune to stupid urges and/or emotions. Not at all. It should, as Kerry argued, make us immune to ACTING on those urges, but a glance at almost any newspaper shows that not even that is true of all.As for Kerry's interpretations being filtered by his own experiences and consciousness, well, of course they are. Yours are. Mine are. Every reader's is. While I do read Maltese Falcon similar to Kerry and different from you, I do see how the text is open ended enough to allow your take, too. And that open endedness is one of the things that makes the book s
o great.Mark
> To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> From: abrasax93@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:02:16 -0700
> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Random Notes On Redemption
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> Kerry, I did not overlook these thought when you expressed them the first time. I simply don't find them in the text or subtext of either the book or the film. These are your own thoughts filtered through your own experiences and brought to the media you perceive.
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> No place in the actual book does Spade profess any "love" for Brigid O'Shaunnassey. He just doesn't. It's not there. Had Hammett on that first page said he looked like Basil Rathbone, probably just as accurate a description, you might not even feel so strongly yourself. You put too much symbolism into a chance description which I'm sure Hammett used instead of my suggestion to evoke a stronger reader reaction. But you seem to obsess on the idea that Spade actually IS Satan or one of his minions on earth. I don't believe that's Hammett's point at all.
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> Patrick King
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> --- On Tue, 9/8/09, gsp.schoo@MOT.com <gsp.schoo@murderoutthere.com> wrote:
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> From: gsp.schoo@MOT.com <gsp.schoo@murderoutthere.com>
> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Random Notes On Redemption
> To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 8, 2009, 10:55 AM
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> Well the long weekend's over and Tuesday has rolled around, so, as you asked so nicely Patrick, I will again provide the evidence of Spade's attraction to Brigid, repeating I think an entry now lost in RAs misty archives and, apparently, your attention. Or maybe I forgot to mention it.
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> First let me point out that place (first paragraph), repetition (v) and the text itself lends some importance to Hammett's description of Spade evoking satanic qualities. "He looked rather pleasantly like a blond satan," suggests there's more to the man than the first blush of appearance alone. Nevertheless, satan symbolizes something more than a lack of morality. In western culture satan is actively opposed to the practice of morality. This is the set-up for the much later "Don't be too sure I'm as crooked as I'm supposed to be."
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> Also, when it comes to 17 and 38 year olds, the hallmark of maturity is an ability to resist the implse to pursue immediate gratification for what might be perceived as delayed but greater benefits, not necessarily an immunity to feeling the stimulus of emotion.
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> The dichotomy between the need for love and the drive for power is central to western culture, religious and psychological, and central to The Maltese Falcon. It is Samson and Delilah all over again, except that unlike Samson, Spade resists the impulse to pursue a romantic relationship with Brigid, engaging instead in a power struggle with her. It could be argued that the severity and cruelty of his tactics to avoid entrapment while pursuing his purpose are indicative of the strength of her pull on him. It could be argued that much of the action between them through the middle of the book involves him giving her opportunities to show that she trusts him as much as she's asking him to trust her. In the end we need not rely on such debatable subtleties to understand how Spade feels about Brigid. He tells us himself.
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> This comes at a point when there is little need for Spade to explain himself to Brigid if his only purpose is to defeat her. The game has been played, the trap sprung, and it would be much more cruel for him just to walk out and leave her with the police. Instead, he explains, as much, if not more for the reader's understanding as hers. Most of his reasons have to do with the fact that he cannot trust her, but then we get a final admission: "If that doesn't mean anything to you forget it and we'll make it this: I won't because all of me wants to--wants to say to hell with the consequences and do it--and because--God damn you--you've counted on that with me the same as you counted on that with the others." Yes, he denies his love at first, but this is final argument. He feels both her appeal and the essentiality of avoiding taking it up. He feels strongly enough about it to curse her for it.
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> One final note: you equate the willingness to pursue values to violent ends with mental imbalance and there's certainly a familiar argument that such obsession is a form of madness, but if so it's an all too common madness to meet the psychological standard of abnormality. In fact, obsession is a hallmark of industrial society. On the other hand, if Spade were truly impervious to the common emotion of human love then he might easily be described as a sociopath. "Satanic" might be another term for sociopathy, but Hammett doesn't say Spade "is" satanic, he says he "looks" like a blond satan. He's not as crooked as he appears.
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> Spade is human enough, and is on a quest to find a reliable base for his taking-care- of-business morality. If he achieves it, that's at great cost. I don't think it's romantic at all to recognize that the human condition involves being caught between the need for love, including romantic love, and the notorious unreliability of love. I see that as very damned-if-you- do, damned-if-you- don't noir. It is what Kevin recognizes when he says that we must have hope (aspiration) to appreciate the darkness of noir.
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> Best,
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> Kerry
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> ----- Original Message -----
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> From: Patrick King
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> To: rara-avis-l@ yahoogroups. com
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> Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:06 PM
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> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Random Notes On Redemption
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> What I think you miss is that love is no more logical than the supernatural rules of morality. Love is based on emotion, trigged by hormones, not reason. All the things you say about Spade's understanding of Brigid can be true and still not negate the feelings that he has for her. These are feelings that he states in the book and movie. It is the ability of women to tempt men despite the men's better judgements that is at the base of femme fatality. Literature is littered with the corpses of people who, unlike Spade, either hoped to reform their lovers or went along for the ride.
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> What you say about love may be true for a 17-year-old. Hopefully not for many 38-year-olds. Where does Spade express his love for Brigid in terms that are not at best ironic, and at worst sarcastic? "When they let you out I'll be waiting." Wink wink: sure, he's going to wait 17 years if she's lucky. "I hope they don't hang you by that sweet neck, precious." He could care less. He's caught her and he's done with her. The case against her is iron-clad.
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> What lines are you reading or hearing that indicate he has any actually fondness for her? He even makes her unwillingly strip naked in front of three men and himself at gun point. Is this something you do to a woman you love, admire and trust?
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> From the moment "Wonderly" walks into the office, Spade distrusts her and openly expresses his distrust directly to her. She offers him her body and he takes it and uses it to his own purpose. I can see no shred of evidence that Spade has any romantic or even friendly feelings toward this woman whom he knew from the beginning killed his partner.
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> Sam Spade is a man playing with spiders, all of them. That is what is so intriguing about the story. He toys with the psychopathic Wilmer Cook whom he knows murders without thought. He sleeps with the equally deadly Brigid.
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> As for Spade being impervious to any idea that the Falcon has artistic or historical value, that's what I said, and what Hammett is saying, but clearly this is a significant part of what motivates Gutman. You call this motivation madness, and that's fine by me, but it's a common madness, a madness that is at the root of whatever economic value the statue may or may not have in the book, and the dreams that so many of us have in life.
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> A common madness is: "My husband has a life insurance policy for 3 million dollars made out to my favor. If you help me kill him, I'll share it with you." Several of these happen every year with different outcomes.
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> Less common: "My husband owns the Cornucopia.. ." "My husband owns The Holy Grail..." "Blackbeard' s treasure is buried in my ex-husband's back yard."
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> The criminal who falls for one of these is possessed of a special type of insanity... and a certain gullibility.
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> And yes, Spade is motivated to save his business, the pursuit of a job well done, but I think Hammett recognized that something is lost in denying love, art and dreams. Early on he devotes a paragraph to Spade's physical description, entirely in satanic terms. At the end it's suggested that Spade goes back to a relationship with Archer's wife, a woman he clearly does not even like, let alone love. She's probably a good lay though, another job well done.
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> Well, he describes Spade as a blond Satan, which, to me means Spade has pointed features and a thin face. I don't know what you mean by "entirely satanic terms." I didn't attribute that much symbolism to the comment beyond expecting that this character would play fast and lose with morality, which he, in fact, does.
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> Yes Patrick, we've read the same book, seen the same movie. But you have to see all of each and not leave out the bits that don't fit your heroic interpretation of Spade. It's a better, more complex narrative than you credit it.
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> I'd appreciate it if you'd point more specifically to the parts I've missed. I think you're adding your own romantic spin to what is really a pretty dark and scary story. But I appreciate your feedback, Kerry.
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> Patrick King
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