Nice list, Kerry. Got any more? I've already read those and am always looking for more in their vein.
Mark
> To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> From: gsp.schoo@murderoutthere.com
> Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 12:05:02 -0400
> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Random Notes On Redemption
>
> I have to admit, Mark, that I was being glib in naming a "tragic noir" genre. That said, I think I can come up with a few examples without using up all of what's promising to be a beautiful long weekend here in South Ont. So thanks for asking.
>
> Cock Fighter comes to mind. The idea of pursuing redemption by dedicating yourself to the cruel and pointless craft of training chickens to fight is so madly, sadly and hopelessly tragic as to be comic. I think the book should be seen a companion piece to Willeford's Burnt Orange parody of the transcendent worth of art. In Cock Fighter, the prize is so small as to be meaningless, a cruel parody of how little the wealthy sponsors of the sport have to pay to enjoy their corruption. The protagonist gets his voice back too, but what does he have to say?
>
> In No Country for Old Men the McGuffin is not so much redemption for specific past failures as a larger need for assurance that the protagonist's life, in this case a career in law enforcement, has had value, been for the general good. In the end he must not only face his inability to do much if anything about the death and corruption he sees surrounding him, but he learns that things are no worse now than they ever were, meaning that the heroes and mentors of his past had done no better than he. He resigns as chief of police, hoping to find some peace and satisfaction in the notoriously uncertain waters of personal human relationships.
>
> And that brings me to Lew Griffin, a man who keeps falling off the spiritual wagon and keeps returning to New Orleans damp swill of crime and corruption, trying to right wrongs committed against a handfull of hopeless friends and acquaintances, but in Sallis' bug books, happiness and satisfaction, such as they are, are found in passing moments of companionship and compassion, not by overpowering evil.
>
> Some will say that the protagonists of these novels actually achieve some form of redemption at the end, that the cockfighter reaches his objective, and the retiring cop and timeless detective do find redemption in the company of loved ones, but I'm not sure these things can be called moral redemption, achieving peace through satisfying the moral demands of a supernatural power. That said, it is the nature of redemption, truth and spiritual values that if you truly believe you have achieved them, then by-golly you have, if only until someone comes along to tell you you're wrong.
>
> Best,
> Kerry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Sullivan
> To: rara-avis
> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 4:45 PM
> Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: Re: Random Notes On Redemption
>
>
>
> So Kerry, what are some titles you would suggest in your "favorite sub-genre sub-genre" of "tragic noir"?
> Mark
>
> > To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> > From: gsp.schoo@murderoutthere.com
> > Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:24:41 -0400
> > Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Random Notes On Redemption
> >
> > Mark:
> >
> > A tale that illustrates the pointlessness, the impossibility of redemption? Noir, then.
> >
> > Although if you believe in redemption then you might find it tragic. Tragic noir, perhaps.
> >
> > That might be my favourite sub-genre sub-genre.
> >
> > I've gone bald splitting hairs on this list. Unless you've some to spare?
> >
> > Kerry
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mark Sullivan
> > To: rara-avis
> > Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 3:20 PM
> > Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: Re: Random Notes On Redemption
> >
> >
> >
> > Kerry wrote:
> > "I know I'm repeating myself here, but for me the defining characteristic of noir is that it is not just the failure of redemption but the complete absence and pointlessness of redemption. The desire for or the attempt to achieve redemption and failing to do so, a "cautionary tale" as you put it, is tragedy."
> > I see your point about what I brought up being tragedy. But what about a tale of someone who believes in redemption, even seeks it, in a world where it is absent, impossible to achieve? Does that failure to recognize reality still make it tragedy, is that blindness a fatal flaw, or something else instead or in addition to tragedy?
> >
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