RARA-AVIS: Digest Number 1

From: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
Date: 22 Aug 2004


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There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Definitions
           From: "Jack Bludis" < buildsnburns@yahoo.com>
      2. Jack: Definitions
           From: "Maddy Van" < maddyvh@comcast.net>
      3. Out of the Past
           From: "Dick Lochte" < dlochte@adelphia.net>
      4. Introduction
           From: Tim Wohlforth < tim@timwohlforth.com>
      5. Re: Introduction
           From: "Joy Matkowski" < jmatkowski1@comcast.net>
      6. Introduction
           From: "John A. Armstrong" < johnnyyen@telus.net>
      7. Re: Introduction
           From: "Brian Thornton" < tieresias@worldnet.att.net>
      8. Re: Introduction
           From: Doug Bassett < dj_bassett@yahoo.com>
      9. Out of the Past/Build My Gallows High
           From: "Paul Farrell" < pm_farrell@hotmail.com>
     10. Re: Introduction
           From: "John A. Armstrong" < johnnyyen@telus.net>
     11. Re: Introduction
           From: "Jim Beaver" < jumblejim@prodigy.net>
     12. RE: Introduction
           From: "Maddy Van" < maddyvh@comcast.net>
     13. Re: Introduction
           From: DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net
     14. RE: Introduction
           From: "Aldo T. Calcagno" < acalcagno@simi.k12.ca.us>
     15. Re: Out of the Past
           From: DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net
     16. Re: Introduction
           From: "Patrick J Lambe" < patlambe@patlambe.com>
     17. Re: Introduction
           From: "Hurricane" < hurricane7@rogers.com>
     18. Re: Out of the Past
           From: JIM DOHERTY < jimdohertyjr@yahoo.com>
     19. Re: Introduction
           From: JIM DOHERTY < jimdohertyjr@yahoo.com>
     20. Musuraca's and Tourneur's Lighting For "Out of the Past"
           From: chrisaschneider@earthlink.net
     21. Re: Introduction
           From: "Jim Beaver" < jumblejim@prodigy.net>
     22. Re: Out of the Past/Build My Gallows High
           From: "Brian Thornton" < tieresias@worldnet.att.net>

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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:21:28 -0000
   From: "Jack Bludis" < buildsnburns@yahoo.com> Subject: Definitions

--- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, "jimdohertyjr"
<jimdohertyjr@y...> wrote:
> Just remember this:
>
> "Hard-boiled" means "tough and colloquial."
>
> "Noir" means "dark and sinister."
>
> JIM DOHERTY

Here we go again:

"Hard-boiled" is "Tough," but it it does not have to be colloquial. Chandler is anything but colloquial. I hate the term because so few reach the level, but his style is "literary."

"Noir" is "Screwed" unless we are talking about "Film noir." In that case I agree that "Dark and Sinister" fits.

To be noir, a book does not have to be dark and sinister. It has to be about a lead character whose fate is sealed from the opening lines. No matter what the lead does, he or she is screwed.

Hardboiled=tough

Noir=screwed

Jack Bludis

PS: This post is late because I was out in the never-never land of no rara-avis during the "digest crash" or whatever the hell it was.

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Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:34:36 -0500
   From: "Maddy Van" < maddyvh@comcast.net> Subject: Jack: Definitions

People have written Masters theses on these definitions, but I think Jack has got it knocked in 2 simple words! Bravo!
  Maddy
 
 
-----Hardboiled=tough

Noir=screwed

Jack Bludis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:30:38 -0700
   From: "Dick Lochte" < dlochte@adelphia.net> Subject: Out of the Past

I haven't had a chance to get the "Out of the Past" DVD but there's something in it I've always wanted to check out. Years ago, I spent the better part of an afternoon with Robert Mitchum, mainly talking about his movies -- from the Hopalong Cassidys to his then current "The Friends of Eddie Coyle." When he got around to "Past," he was just as dismissive of it as he was of all his films, "Coyle" included. I found myself in the position of defending his own movie, talking about Tourneur's direction and the great camerawork and lighting. "Well, this whole thing about so-called noir lighting," he said, "that was because the budgets were so low we were down to candlepower. And as far as Jacques' direction, I guess you didn't see the prop guy's arm stick that phone on Betty Jane Greer's table." Tourneur didn't notice it? I asked. "Oh, hell yeah he noticed it. Betty Jane called it to his attention. Jacques just said (in French accent): 'Doan worry. They weel all be looking at you.'"

Assuming Mitchum wasn't making the whole thing up (which was not inconceivable), Tourneur must've been right, because as often as I've seen the movie, I've never seen the arm. A frame-by-frame check of Greer's telephone scenes should provide the answer.

Dick Lochte

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Message: 4
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:45:40 -0700
   From: Tim Wohlforth < tim@timwohlforth.com> Subject: Introduction

Since the Rara-Avis list now has a new home, I thought it might be an appropriate time to introduce myself. I have been lurking for a few months using the digest format. I know some of you from the Short Mystery list and from mystery conventions.

I am a writer of noir/hardboiled short stories and novels. Therefore, of course, also an avid reader of same. I have sold 49 short stories, almost all of them on the dark side. They have been published in hardboiled sites like Plots With Guns, Thrilling Detective, Hardluck Stories as well as in several of Michael Bracken's anthologies. I have hardboiled stories presently up at www.orchardpressmysteries.com and www.thrillingdetective.com.

My noir novel NO TIME TO MOURN had just been published by Quiet Storm. Lee Child says, "Like a twelve-bar blues - the comfort of a familiar form jazzed by a fresh key and an exciting new voice." Jerry Healy calls it "a dark gem of a crime novel."

So much for the background and BSPs. I promise not to burden the list incessantly with such material. But this is an intro.

I did want to pass on an interesting conversation I had recently with a top (perhaps THE top) NYC literary agent who handles mysteries. I had spoken with him several years back and he had stated that PI hardboiled novels were almost impossible to sell to publishers. I recently wrote him that currently writers like Connelly, Child, Lehane, Rankin, Crais, and Pelacanos were hitting the best seller lists. He called me on the phbone (they never do that!) to explain that while some established writers in this sub-genre were selling well, publishers still were extremely resistant to publishing new hardboiled writers.

My sense is that he's right. I think it is easier for a new writer to break in with a cozy that St. Martin's might pick up and publish in hardcover for libraries where a predominantly middle-aged female readership hangs out.

What do you all think? If true, it's a problem not only for writers but for fans of the genre who like to read fresh material. Of course small publishers like Quiet Storm help greatly. But their reach into bookstores and even libraries is minuscule.

Tim Wohlforth

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Message: 5
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:01:18 -0400
   From: "Joy Matkowski" < jmatkowski1@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Introduction

>From the standpoint of being one, I think lots of the middle-aged female
readership prefers hardboiled crime fiction.

Joy

Tim Wohlforth asked:
> I think it is easier for a new writer to
> break in with a cozy that St. Martin's might pick up and publish in
> hardcover for libraries where a predominantly middle-aged female
> readership hangs out.
>
> What do you all think?

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Message: 6
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:45:55 -0700
   From: "John A. Armstrong" < johnnyyen@telus.net> Subject: Introduction

Hello - new to the list and mostly checking that I'm getting and sending mail OK. But to keep this on-topic, I'm reading some James Lee Burke books I picked up in trade and several of them feature the Billy Bob Holland character, who's haunted in a comradely way by his friend L.Q. Navarro. Can anyone recall any other books/series in the genre that had supernatural elements? Another Burke book, In The Electric Mist with Confederate Dead, had the lead character visited by a Civi War general and his troops, though whether this a ghost or hallucination is left undetermined, but beyond that I can't think of any.

Best,

John Armstrong Vancouver, BC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Message: 7
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:30:55 -0700
   From: "Brian Thornton" < tieresias@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Introduction

Hi there John-

Yes, Burke does have a but of the "Faulknerian mystic" about him. A hell of a writer, for my money. I've read IN THE ELECTRIC MIST WITH CONFEDERATE DEAD, and thought it was pretty good, although the (for me) obvious hallucination about John Bell Hood coming back from the grave to converse with Dave Robicheaux was a bit distracting. You might try A STAINED WHITE RADIANCE (another Robicheaux novel). I finished it not too long ago and loved it. I have a large number of Burke's stuff in my To-Be-Read Hill (too large for a pile, over even a hillock).

Most importantly, welcome to the list. We talk about all this cool stuff here!

Lastly, you live in the most gorgeous city in the Western hemisphere.

Brian Thornton Seattle, WA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: John A. Armstrong
  To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:45 AM
  Subject: RARA-AVIS: Introduction

  Hello - new to the list and mostly checking that I'm getting and sending mail OK. But to keep this on-topic, I'm reading some James Lee Burke books I picked up in trade and several of them feature the Billy Bob Holland character, who's haunted in a comradely way by his friend L.Q. Navarro. Can anyone recall any other books/series in the genre that had supernatural elements?
  Another Burke book, In The Electric Mist with Confederate Dead, had the lead character visited by a Civi War general and his troops, though whether this a ghost or hallucination is left undetermined, but beyond that I can't think of any.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Message: 8
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:44:08 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Doug Bassett < dj_bassett@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Introduction

Hello, Mr. Armstrong. Welcome to the list.

Regarding Burke, BLACK CHERRY BLUES definitely had supernatural aspects. It's been awhile since I read it, but I'm pretty sure A MORNING FOR FLAMINGOS also had some. In fact, I identify the technique with Burke, he uses it so often.

I'm currently rereading Crumley's THE MEXICAN TREE DUCK, which is as good as I remember it (and IMO rather underrated). Before that was his DANCING BEAR, which I liked but seemed to blur out, here and there. I generally prefer the C.W. Shugrue books to the Milo Milodragovitch books, I think: I suspect Crumley overidentifies with Milo, which tends to lead him toward some self-indulgence. Much of DANCING BEAR is really an essay about Montana more than an actual novel.

Not saying it's bad, though. Even secondary Crumley is better than 90% of everything else out there.

doug
--- "John A. Armstrong" < johnnyyen@telus.net> wrote:

>
>
>
> Hello - new to the list and mostly checking that I'm
> getting and sending mail OK. But to keep this
> on-topic, I'm reading some James Lee Burke books I
> picked up in trade and several of them feature the
> Billy Bob Holland character, who's haunted in a
> comradely way by his friend L.Q. Navarro. Can anyone
> recall any other books/series in the genre that had
> supernatural elements?
> Another Burke book, In The Electric Mist with
> Confederate Dead, had the lead character visited by
> a Civi War general and his troops, though whether
> this a ghost or hallucination is left undetermined,
> but beyond that I can't think of any.
>
> Best,
>
> John Armstrong
> Vancouver, BC

>

===== Doug Bassett dj_bassett@yahoo.com

                
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Message: 9
   Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:21:37 +1200
   From: "Paul Farrell" < pm_farrell@hotmail.com> Subject: Out of the Past/Build My Gallows High

Regarding Geoffrey Homes' "Build My Gallows High", Miker wrote:
>If I recall correctly, the title of the
>book never appears in the novel text, but he did
>manage to work it into the screen text.

The phrase "build my gallows high" is near the end of the book, on page 147 of the Prion edition. Red is speaking with Ann, and says "The one I'm blaming helped build my gallows high".

Great phrase, and I like the ending in the book even better than the one in the movie.

_________________________________________________________________ There's never been a better time to get Xtra JetStream @ http://xtra.co.nz/jetstream

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Message: 10
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:28:09 -0700
   From: "John A. Armstrong" < johnnyyen@telus.net> Subject: Re: Introduction

Thanks for the welcome -

JAA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Brian Thornton
  To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:30 PM
  Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Introduction

  Hi there John-

  Yes, Burke does have a but of the "Faulknerian mystic" about him. A hell of a writer, for my money. I've read IN THE ELECTRIC MIST WITH CONFEDERATE DEAD, and thought it was pretty good, although the (for me) obvious hallucination about John Bell Hood coming back from the grave to converse with Dave Robicheaux was a bit distracting. You might try A STAINED WHITE RADIANCE (another Robicheaux novel). I finished it not too long ago and loved it. I have a large number of Burke's stuff in my To-Be-Read Hill (too large for a pile, over even a hillock).

  Most importantly, welcome to the list. We talk about all this cool stuff here!

  Lastly, you live in the most gorgeous city in the Western hemisphere.

  Brian Thornton
  Seattle, WA
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: John A. Armstrong
    To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:45 AM
    Subject: RARA-AVIS: Introduction

    Hello - new to the list and mostly checking that I'm getting and sending mail OK. But to keep this on-topic, I'm reading some James Lee Burke books I picked up in trade and several of them feature the Billy Bob Holland character, who's haunted in a comradely way by his friend L.Q. Navarro. Can anyone recall any other books/series in the genre that had supernatural elements?
    Another Burke book, In The Electric Mist with Confederate Dead, had the lead character visited by a Civi War general and his troops, though whether this a ghost or hallucination is left undetermined, but beyond that I can't think of any.

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  RARA-AVIS home page: http://www.miskatonic.org/rara-avis/

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Message: 11
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:47:19 -0700
   From: "Jim Beaver" < jumblejim@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: Introduction

John wrote;

 Can anyone recall any other books/series in the genre that had supernatural elements?
> Another Burke book, In The Electric Mist with Confederate Dead, had the
lead character visited by a Civi War general and his troops, though whether this a ghost or hallucination is left undetermined, but beyond that I can't think of any.

If you mean non-Burke books, Richard Abshire and William Clair had two novels featuring their P.I. character Gants, both of which had supernatural elements: "Gants" and "The Shaman Tree." I like all of Abshire's stuff, but of these two I particularly enjoyed "Gants."

Jim Beaver

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Message: 12
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:44:56 -0500
   From: "Maddy Van" < maddyvh@comcast.net> Subject: RE: Introduction

Whew, that's a stereotype that needs updating! This middle-aged female reader only reads hardboiled and noir. And many of the members of a Yahoo group that I moderate are right there with me. We're not sitting around crocheting and gossiping over tea. We're kicking butt in the workplace and networking over martinis.
  Maddy
 
 
-----My sense is that he's right. I think it is easier for a new writer to break in with a cozy that St. Martin's might pick up and publish in hardcover for libraries where a predominantly middle-aged female readership hangs out.

Tim Wohlforth

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Message: 13
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:41:31 -0400
   From: DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net Subject: Re: Introduction

John wrote:

"Can anyone recall any other books/series in the genre that had supernatural elements?"

George Chesbro's Mongo series had supernatural elements, which was one of the reasons I eventually tired of them (and Burke, for that matter). We've discussed Fallen (or was it Falling?) Angel/Angel Heart on occasion.

Then there are plenty of hardboiled/noir books that debunk seemingly supernatural events -- Rim of the Pit, John Franklin Bardin's books, etc.

Mark

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Message: 14
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:36:38 -0700
   From: "Aldo T. Calcagno" < acalcagno@simi.k12.ca.us> Subject: RE: Introduction

You go Maddy....I'll be on the sidelines taking notes for my novel!
  Aldo

We're kicking butt in the workplace and networking over martinis.

Maddy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Message: 15
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:46:25 -0400
   From: DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net Subject: Re: Out of the Past

Dick quoted Robert Mitchum:

"Well, this whole thing about so-called noir lighting," he said, "that was because the budgets were so low we were down to candlepower. . . ."

At University of Maryland, I had a film history professor, Douglas Gomery, who came from an economics background. He found the documentation (memos, budgets, etc) to back up that the the lighting style was due to cost-cutting on the sets Funny how limitations can become defining elements.

Mark

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Message: 16
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:06:02 -0000
   From: "Patrick J Lambe" < patlambe@patlambe.com> Subject: Re: Introduction

--- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, "John A. Armstrong"
<johnnyyen@t...> wrote:
>
>
>
 Can anyone recall any other books/series in the genre that had supernatural elements?
> Another Burke book, In The Electric Mist with Confederate Dead,
had the lead character visited by a Civi War general and his troops, though whether this a ghost or hallucination is left undetermined, but beyond that I can't think of any.
>
> Best,
>
> John Armstrong
> Vancouver, BC
>
I haven't read it in a while, but I recall the Dain Curse by Hammett had some supernatural elements to it. Walter Mosley's prequel to his Easy Rawlins books, Gone Fishin' featured a witch character who seemed to have supernatural powers (at least over a young Easy Rawlins).
  As for James Lee Burke, I think he's an immensly talented writer but his books, at least he Robicheux novels that I have read (except the first one)are somewhat repetive. His lanscape description is moving, but there is often too much of it for my attention span. My favorite is Dixe City Jam, something about lost Nazi subs always stirs my imagination. (There's one off of New Jersey that has been the subject of recent media stories and a new book)
>

Pat Lambe http//:patlambe.com patlambe@patlambe.com

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Message: 17
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:30:00 -0400
   From: "Hurricane" < hurricane7@rogers.com> Subject: Re: Introduction

Well I guess this is a good time for me to jump in and say Maddy is certainly pretty well spot on. I would much prefer to not read a cosy unless I happen to be on the beach. I also have been reading this list for a while (well over a year) and while I never post I do follow the discussions and my reading pool has increased due to this list.

Patricia See you in Toronto for: www.bouchercon2004.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Maddy Van" < maddyvh@comcast.net> To: < rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: Introduction

> Whew, that's a stereotype that needs updating! This middle-aged female
> reader only reads hardboiled and noir. And many of the members of a
> Yahoo group that I moderate are right there with me. We're not sitting
> around crocheting and gossiping over tea. We're kicking butt in the
> workplace and networking over martinis.
>
> Maddy
>
>
> -----My sense is that he's right. I think it is easier for a new writer
> to
> break in with a cozy that St. Martin's might pick up and publish in
> hardcover for libraries where a predominantly middle-aged female
> readership hangs out.
>
> Tim Wohlforth
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> RARA-AVIS home page: http://www.miskatonic.org/rara-avis/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

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Message: 18
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
   From: JIM DOHERTY < jimdohertyjr@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Out of the Past

Mark,

Re your comment below:

> At University of Maryland, I had a film history
> professor, Douglas
> Gomery, who came from an economics background. He
> found the
> documentation (memos, budgets, etc) to back up that
> the the lighting
> style was due to cost-cutting on the sets Funny how
> limitations can
> become defining elements.

Edward Dmytrik, who directed MURDER, MY SWEET, CROSSFIRE, and CORNERED, three of the definitive film noirs, said the same thing in a TV interview. It was just a way of making films economically.

JIM DOHERTY

                
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Message: 19
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:01:59 -0700 (PDT)
   From: JIM DOHERTY < jimdohertyjr@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Introduction

Jim B,

Re your comment below:

> If you mean non-Burke books, Richard Abshire and
> William Clair had two
> novels featuring their P.I. character Gants, both of
> which had supernatural
> elements: "Gants" and "The Shaman Tree." I like all
> of Abshire's stuff, but
> of these two I particularly enjoyed "Gants."

Wasn't he still a cop in that one? Suspended, or on medical leave, or something like that, but a cop. My recollection is that Gants doesn't become a PI until the sequel.

JIM DOHERTY

                
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Message: 20
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:45:30 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
   From: chrisaschneider@earthlink.net Subject: Musuraca's and Tourneur's Lighting For "Out of the Past"

Mark wrote:
> He found documentation (memos,
> budgets, etc) to back up that the
> lighting style [of "Out of the Past"]
> was due to cost-cutting on the sets.

Doherty wrote:
> it was just a way of making films
> economically

It was in one of his essays, I believe, that W.H. Auden gave, as an example of genius, composer Giacomo Rossini spilling ink on a portion of his score's manuscript, his noticing that the ink landed on a good place for a note, and then his keeping the note in that spot for the final score.

Whether or not the lighting of "Out of the Past" was a result of economics -- although I, myself, would prefer to speak of the quite conscious influence of the Val Lewton unit at R.K.O. and their approach toward atmospherics -- my claim would be that the important factors are (2) what was done in the final movie, and (2) the import of those choices in the film that we view today.

Both director Tourneur and cinematographer Nicholas Musurara had worked together under Lewton, of course -- "The Cat People" (1942).

Here, by the way, is a good article on Tourneur:

http://www.filmlinc.com/fcm/7-8-2002/tourneur2.htm

Chris

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Message: 21
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:33:05 -0700
   From: "Jim Beaver" < jumblejim@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: Introduction

>
> Wasn't he still a cop in that one? Suspended, or on
> medical leave, or something like that, but a cop. My
> recollection is that Gants doesn't become a PI until
> the sequel.
>
> JIM DOHERTY

I think you're right. I think the experience in the first book led to his leaving the force, one way or the other.

Jim Beaver

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Message: 22
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:55:07 -0700
   From: "Brian Thornton" < tieresias@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Out of the Past/Build My Gallows High

> The phrase "build my gallows high" is near the end of the book, on page
147
> of the Prion edition. Red is speaking with Ann, and says "The one I'm
> blaming helped build my gallows high".
>
> Great phrase, and I like the ending in the book even better than the one
in
> the movie.

I ordered it as soon as it was released, via Netflix. I watched it again
(had seen it on TCM years ago) and was again impressed with how good it was. Makes me want to order Mitchum in "Farewell, My Lovely" again. If he'd played Marlowe twenty years earlier, he'd have been *perfect.*

All the Best-

Brian Thornton - Also Going To Bouchercon In Toronto 2004. See You All There!

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