David Corbett's comment on noir:
http://www.mulhollandbooks.com/2010/10/28/insulting-your-intelligence-just-gimme-some-noiriness/
The piece as fine a thumbnail of noir that I have ever seen.
Particularly to the point was this part of one paragraph:
"... a subgenre of tragedy, in which the error of judgment is the belief, often born of desperation, that a criminal act can redeem one’s pitiless luck."
That is as precise a definition of noir as I have ever seen. It's not as short as "noir=screwed," but it is far more comprehensive.
Jack Bludis
"Shadow of the Dahlia," a Shamus finalist novel at Amazon.com
and BarnesandNoble.com New edition trade-paper, Kindle, and Nook
--- On Thu, 11/4/10, rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com <rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> From: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com <rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RARA-AVIS: Digest Number 2869
> To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 5:54 AM
> There are 12 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1a. Re: Hard Boiled Crime Book Club
> From: chuckelp
> 1b. Re: Hard Boiled Crime Book Club
> From: Patrick Golden
>
> 2a. Noiriness
> From: davidcorbett622
> 2b. Re: Noiriness
> From: Ron Clinton
> 2c. Re: Noiriness
> From: Michael Jeter
> 2d. Re: Noiriness
> From: Lawrence William Coates
> 2e. Re: Noiriness
> From: Don Lee
> 2f. Re: Noiriness
> From: sonny
>
> 3a. Re: More Heresy
> From: Patrick King
>
> 4. "The Long Goodbye" -- More heresy
> From: Jack Bludis
>
> 5a. NoirCon
> From: Todd Mason
> 5b. Re: NoirCon
> From: sonny
>
>
> Messages
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 1a. Re: Hard Boiled Crime Book Club
> Posted by: "chuckelp" chuckelp@ix.netcom.com
> chuckelp
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 6:19 am ((PDT))
>
> I read fine print for a living.
> There was no notice.
>
> And I do not consider a Sunny Randall novel Hardboiled.
>
> Ralph Nader would surely deem this consumer fraud.
> I deem it Stupid Business Practice.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com,
> "hardcasecrime" <editor@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Someone contacted me on Facebook about this, and I
> thought I'd share with everyone here the message I sent
> him:
> >
> > -------
> > I've spoken with Dorchester about their plans, and I
> have no objection to their continuing the book club, as long
> as they don't use the Hard Case Crime name and as long as
> they communicate clearly to the members just what it is
> they're doing (and give everyone the chance to opt out if
> they no longer want to be part of it).
> >
> > There are plenty of great hardboiled crime novels that
> have been published by houses other than Hard Case Crime,
> and it may well be that members of the book club would enjoy
> getting some of these. I even recommended some to
> Dorchester that they might send -- for instance, the
> brilliant Matthew Scudder novels by Lawrence Block, which
> I'd gladly have reprinted in our line if the opportunity had
> existed.
> >
> > However -- and this is critical -- Dorchester should
> notify all members about what they're doing before they
> start doing it, so that no one is confused or upset the way
> you clearly are. If they'd sent you a note saying,
> "Here's what we plan to do now that we're no longer
> publishing Hard Case Crime; we'll be mailing you other books
> in the same spirit, which you can keep or return as you see
> fit," you might or might not have stayed with the club, but
> at least you would have felt good rather than bad about what
> they were doing.
> >
> > Of course, as you say, it's possible that Dorchester
> did send you a notice of this sort and you just missed it --
> but if they didn't, they absolutely should have. I
> will make sure they get a copy of your message and will let
> them know that anything less than full, clear communication
> with all book club members is simply unacceptable.
> > -------
> >
> > My 2 cents: Now that Dorchester is no longer
> publishing its own new books in this genre, I completely
> understand that their only option for keeping the book club
> going is to send out books from other publishers.
> There's nothing shameful or inappropriate about that.
> Hell, who knows, if they're still at it when next September
> rolls around, maybe they'll even buy copies of our new books
> from Titan and send those out.
> >
> > The only catch is that they need to communicate
> clearly with members about what they're doing and why, and
> give everyone a chance to exit if they don't want to be part
> of it. I even offered to write a letter myself that
> they could send to members with the first new shipment; they
> never took me up on this offer.
> >
> > But I've let them know about the kinds of reactions
> they're getting and urged them to communicate with members
> now to make everything clear.
> >
> > Hopefully they will.
> >
> > --Charles
> >
> >
> > --- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com,
> David Rachels <RachelsDA@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > The annoyed reader writes . . .
> > >
> > > I received in the mail today what I took to be
> the latest shipment from the Hard Case Crime Book
> Club. Having lost track of what HCC book might be
> coming next (and unsure of whether there were any more
> coming from Dorchester at all), I opened the package with
> some sense of excitement . . . and I was much surprised to
> find a copy of a ten-year-old Sunny Randall novel by Robert
> B. Parker.
> > >
> > > Looking at the enclosed invoice (no money due, of
> course--they've already taken my $5.99), I was surprised to
> see that I am now a member of something called the Hard
> Boiled Crime Book Club.
> > >
> > > Was I warned that they were going to do this to
> me? I don't know--I don't usually look at the fine
> print when they send me a new book. But in any
> case: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
> > >
> > > David R.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (7)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 1b. Re: Hard Boiled Crime Book Club
> Posted by: "Patrick Golden" psgolden@gmail.com
> patricksg1
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 11:14 am ((PDT))
>
> Interesting that you say you are not involved because when
> I called them yesterday to enquire why I, too, received a
> book from them (and the accompanying charge), I was
> told that "the person who selected the books for the Hard
> Case series is also selecting these books." That's
> nearly an exact quote.
>
> I'm sympathetic to all publishers who want to keep their
> customers in this economy, but this sounds like a bit of
> sophistry on Dorchester's part....if not outright lying.
>
> Patrick
>
> On Nov 2, 2010, at 8:31 PM, hardcasecrime wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > No question -- they failed at communication. I have a
> certain amount of sympathy for them since they're working
> with a skeleton staff at this point (they had to lay off
> much of their staff and much of the remainder subsequently
> quit), but that doesn't change the fact that they handled
> this extremely poorly.
> >
> > Regarding the selection of books, I do think they're
> trying to come up with titles that fans of Hard Case Crime
> legitimately would enjoy. I don't know this particular
> Parker book, but I did mention Parker to them as an author
> we'd have been glad to publish in our line (I had some
> correspondence with Parker's agent over years, but for one
> reason or another it never worked out). I also mentioned
> Block, Westlake, Loren Estleman, and a few others. The
> selection of individual titles will be up to them (I'm not
> involved), but I did have a hand in suggesting authors and
> in some cases individual books. I did this purely as a favor
> to them -- they're good people and they're going through a
> very hard time, and I wanted to help if I could.
> >
> > But I completely understand why you (and others) were
> pissed off rather than supportive. I just wish they'd
> handled this better.
> >
> > --Charles
> >
> > --- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com,
> "trentrey" <trent@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm also in the book club and am similarly
> annoyed.
> > >
> > > Communication is key, and they failed at that.
> > >
> > > I would stay in the book club if I thought that
> the books were being selected because your readers will
> really dig them. You've built a great brand, and if they
> can't supply your brand, they can certainly, as you mention,
> supply books that lovers of your brand will enjoy. I don't
> know if _Perish Twice_ is a good book or not, but my sense
> is that I got it because it was some overstock that was
> laying around in a warehouse, not because someone thought
> Hard Case Crime readers would enjoy it.
> > >
> > > My previous interactions with Dorchester left me
> very impressed. This incident annihilated that goodwill
> instantly.
> > >
> > > --Trent
> > > The Violent World of Parker
> > > http://violentworldofparker.com/
> > >
> >
> >
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++
> Patrick Golden
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (7)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2a. Noiriness
> Posted by: "davidcorbett622" davidcorbettauthor@gmail.com
> davidcorbett622
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 6:43 am ((PDT))
>
> Mulholland Books posted my essay, "Insulting Your
> Intelligence (Just gimme some noiriness)" last Thursday on
> its website: http://www.mulhollandbooks.com/2010/10/28/insulting-your-intelligence-just-gimme-some-noiriness/
>
> It might be of interest to some of you here. Hope so. Lou
> Boxer says he hopes to hand it out to everyone at Noircon
> this week.
>
> Best,
> David
> www.davidcorbett.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (6)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2b. Re: Noiriness
> Posted by: "Ron Clinton" clinton65@comcast.net
> ronclinton65
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 8:37 am ((PDT))
>
> David, excellent essay...thanks for the read.
>
> Ron C.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com]
> On
> > Behalf Of davidcorbett622
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 6:43 AM
> > To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RARA-AVIS: Noiriness
> >
> > Mulholland Books posted my essay, "Insulting Your
> Intelligence (Just gimme
> some
> > noiriness)" last Thursday on its website:
> >
> http://www.mulhollandbooks.com/2010/10/28/insulting-your-intelligence-just-
> > gimme-some-noiriness/
> >
> > It might be of interest to some of you here. Hope so.
> Lou Boxer says he
> hopes to
> > hand it out to everyone at Noircon this week.
> >
> > Best,
> > David
> > www.davidcorbett.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > RARA-AVIS home page: http://www.miskatonic.org/rara-avis/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (6)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2c. Re: Noiriness
> Posted by: "Michael Jeter" michael.damian.jeter@gmail.com
> mdjsocial72001
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 9:05 am ((PDT))
>
> Thank you, David.
>
> Very nice piece.
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:43 AM, davidcorbett622 <
> davidcorbettauthor@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Mulholland Books posted my essay, "Insulting Your
> Intelligence (Just gimme
> > some noiriness)" last Thursday on its website:
> > http://www.mulhollandbooks.com/2010/10/28/insulting-your-intelligence-just-gimme-some-noiriness/
> >
> > It might be of interest to some of you here. Hope so.
> Lou Boxer says he
> > hopes to hand it out to everyone at Noircon this
> week.
> >
> > Best,
> > David
> > www.davidcorbett.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Damian Jeter
> New Orleans, LA
> Literacy, Music, and Democracy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (6)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2d. Re: Noiriness
> Posted by: "Lawrence William Coates" coatesl@bgsu.edu
> lorenzocoates
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 9:30 am ((PDT))
>
> Just to join in the praise, I enjoyed the references to
> both Aristotle and
> Joseph Conrad. You might like a quote from Charles
> Baxter that also seems
> to fit:
>
> "Mistakes and crimes are great creators of narrative."
>
> Lawrence
>
>
> On 11/3/10 12:05 PM, "Michael Jeter" <michael.damian.jeter@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thank you, David.
> >
> > Very nice piece.
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:43 AM, davidcorbett622 <
> > davidcorbettauthor@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Mulholland Books posted my essay, "Insulting Your
> Intelligence (Just gimme
> >> some noiriness)" last Thursday on its website:
> >> http://www.mulhollandbooks.com/2010/10/28/insulting-your-intelligence-just-gi
> >> mme-some-noiriness/
> >>
> >> It might be of interest to some of you here. Hope
> so. Lou Boxer says he
> >> hopes to hand it out to everyone at Noircon this
> week.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> David
> >> www.davidcorbett.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (6)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2e. Re: Noiriness
> Posted by: "Don Lee" donthepoet@yahoo.com
> donthepoet
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 4:53 pm ((PDT))
>
> That essay is wonderful! Everybody go read it! I think the
> argument it spot-on, too.
>
> Don
>
> "The horns of grief need no honing."
>
>
>
> -- Charles Bukowski
>
> --- On Wed, 11/3/10, davidcorbett622 <davidcorbettauthor@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Mulholland Books posted my essay,
> "Insulting Your Intelligence (Just gimme some noiriness)"
> last Thursday on its website: http://www.mulhollandbooks.com/2010/10/28/insulting-your-intelligence-just-gimme-some-noiriness/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (6)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2f. Re: Noiriness
> Posted by: "sonny" sforstater@yahoo.com
> sforstater
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 6:08 pm ((PDT))
>
>
> good stuff. i've been enjoying most everything on that site
> with one major exception. the one by 2 guys who've written
> some of the saw movie sequels. that was awful. the piece by
> them, not the movies, which i can't comment on having never
> seen them.
>
> they don't seem like my cup of joe but i can dig horror
> movies as well as fiction. that has nought to do with their
> piece being written in a way that seemed amatuerish or just
> plain awful. i certainly can't throw stones and yet it was
> so bad here i am doing just that. and off topic, to boot!
>
>
> --- On Wed, 11/3/10, Don Lee <donthepoet@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Don Lee <donthepoet@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Noiriness
> > To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 10:43 AM
> > That essay is wonderful! Everybody go
> > read it! I think the argument it spot-on, too.
> >
> > Don
> >
> > "The horns of grief need no honing."
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Charles Bukowski
> >
> > --- On Wed, 11/3/10, davidcorbett622 <davidcorbettauthor@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Mulholland Books posted my essay,
> > "Insulting Your Intelligence (Just gimme some
> noiriness)"
> > last Thursday on its website: http://www.mulhollandbooks.com/2010/10/28/insulting-your-intelligence-just-gimme-some-noiriness/
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > RARA-AVIS home page: http://www.miskatonic.org/rara-avis/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > rara-avis-l-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (6)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 3a. Re: More Heresy
> Posted by: "Patrick King" abrasax93@yahoo.com
> abrasax93
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 7:02 am ((PDT))
>
> I recently re-read "The Long Goodbye."
>
> When I finished reading it, I managed to find the movie
> on-line.
>
> My heresy?
>
> The movie makes more sense than the book.
>
> **********************
>
> Just in conversation, as I also re-read THE LONG GOODBYE
> recently, actually purchased the movie on iTunes so I could
> watch it after finishing the book, and came to the exact
> opposite conclusion from yours.
>
> In what way do you find the movie more sensible than the
> book?
>
> Granted, THE LONG GOODBYE is not really a plot driven
> mystery. It's a character driven story. We keep reading
> because the characters are intriguing and troublesome, but
> it's unlikely that Chandler was working from any kind of
> outline. You have his usual theme of the two women/sisters
> living apparently diametrically different lives which
> converge at the perverse. Roger Wade is a strongly
> autobiographical character, and I was very aware of this as
> reading the book was inspired by first reading Freeman's THE
> LONG EMBRACE. I found Chandler's book thoroughly
> entertaining but no more logical than the way things happen
> in real life. I thought the ending was unlikely.
>
> So, I watched the movie.
>
> It's easy to admire Marlowe in the book. Chandler's
> character makes decisions based on the greater good. When he
> errs, he errs on the side of compassion. Although his
> insight gives him knowledge of other characters' faults, he
> assesses them rather than judge them and declines to be
> their executioner. The character in the movie played by
> Elliot Gould seems to lack this insight. His compassion is
> based on some kind of knee-jerk reaction rather than the
> wisdom of his literary counterpart. Where Marlowe of the
> novel seems to move through the story with a clear
> understanding, sometimes an expectation, of what others are
> likely to do, Marlowe of the movie seems to be a leaf in the
> wind, inept at what he's trying to do, and usually reliant
> on the behavior of others. Neither the book nor the movie
> ends satisfactorily, but the movie ending is literally
> crazy.
>
> What did you see that I'm missing?
>
> Patrick King
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (2)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 4. "The Long Goodbye" -- More heresy
> Posted by: "Jack Bludis" buildsnburns@yahoo.com
> buildsnburns
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 3:50 pm ((PDT))
>
> I said:
>
> >>I recently re-read "The Long Goodbye." When I
> finished reading it, I managed to find the movie on-line.My
> heresy? The movie makes more sense than the book.<<
>
> And it elicited some response as to what I meant.
> James Michael Rogers said:
>
> > I'm assuming that he means the plot and mystery in
> Long Goodbye is a convoluted mess and that the movie had to
> clean that up a bit just to make it fit into the time
> format.<
>
> JMR was almost right in interpreting what I said--but not
> quite.
>
> Damn the time frame to fit the movie. For me, the book was
> a mess. It was full of characters who seemed to be there as
> space fillers--padding if you will.
>
> The book itself, in my opinion, made only moderate sense
> from the opening, although Chandler wrote such brilliant
> prose that he keeps us reading.
>
> There were too many long political-philosophical passages
> that didn't quite fit the theme, although some of such
> passages did.
>
> The book felt padded to me.
>
> The movie was more hard boiled that what I perceived as the
> extreme sentimentality of the book.
>
> All that being said, I still believe Chandler is the best
> of the hard-boiled writers--although I again say, "The
> Maltese Falcon" is the best of the hard-boiled novels.
>
> Jack Bludis
>
> "Shadow of the Dahlia," a Shamus finalist novel at
> Amazon.com
> and BarnesandNoble.com New edition
> trade-paper, Kindle, and Nook
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (1)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 5a. NoirCon
> Posted by: "Todd Mason" foxbrick@yahoo.com
> foxbrick
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 4:54 pm ((PDT))
>
> So, who here (not yet on a plane or in the car)(or even if
> you are) is attending NoirCon? Starts tomorrow.
>
> http://www.noircon.info/2009/07/noircon-2010.html
>
> Todd Mason
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (3)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 5b. Re: NoirCon
> Posted by: "sonny" sforstater@yahoo.com
> sforstater
> Date: Wed Nov 3, 2010 6:31 pm ((PDT))
>
> i wish. and i was born and raised in philly. but i can't
> afford to go (i'm in minnesota now) since i will be going to
> philly later in the month.
>
> see duane sweirczy for beer; lou boxer for goodis and ed
> pettit for poe.
>
> --- On Wed, 11/3/10, Todd Mason <foxbrick@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Todd Mason <foxbrick@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RARA-AVIS: NoirCon
> > To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 7:54 PM
> > So, who here (not yet on a plane or
> > in the car)(or even if you are) is attending NoirCon?
> Starts
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > http://www.noircon.info/2009/07/noircon-2010.html
> >
> > Todd Mason
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > RARA-AVIS home page: http://www.miskatonic.org/rara-avis/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > rara-avis-l-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (3)
>
>
>
> RARA-AVIS home page: http://www.miskatonic.org/rara-avis/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> rara-avis-l-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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