Sean, for the latest book I've been writing I did a lot of reading about Marquis De Sade and his compatriots, and my interpretation of all this was that Sade and his fellow libertines had a philosophy that they were living in a godless world where nature dictates what the rules should be; namely the more powerful should be able to do whatever they want to those weaker, that there's no incest, rape and murder in nature. A pretty bleak, nihilistic view if you ask me. Anyway, that type of philosophy explains not only the libertine experience, but much of Sade's writing, and also why in the 18th century why you had gangs roaming London street's at night doing things like cutting off people's noses for sport. I remember seeing Kevin complaining about extreme violence in some of today's fiction, such as crucifications, etc. This certainly isn't new. Pick up Marquis De Sade's "120 Days of Sodom". Most vile thing I ever read--the most violent I've seen in contemporary fiction is like reading Dr. Seuss compared to it.
Just as we might have trouble agreeing to what noir and nihilism is, I don't quite get the difference between noir and neo-noir as it applies to fiction. Are we separating the two based solely on when they were written?
--Dave
--- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, Sean Shapiro <ssshapir@...> wrote:
>
> You think 'noir' is hard to define? Gather some philosophers and ask them what 'nihilism' means. Ask them to name a 'nihilist'. See what you get.
>
> Is the writer of Ecclesiastes a nihilist?
>
> Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. (NIV translation.)
>
> Hubert Selby used the KJV version of the quote for 'Last Exit to Brooklyn'.
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> Sean Shapiro
>
>
>
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