Mario, this is where we diagree, and I guess we'll have to agree to
disagree. Not every book where the protagonist is fucked is noir. Not
every tragedy is noir. I'll stick with my definition thatthere's a
choice involved, a line that is crossed. Let's look at the following
situation where a character has two choices, one which fucks him but
is the morally right choice, the other saves him but is having him
give into his worst instincts (betraying a loved one, etc.). A book
written as a tragedy would have him getting fucked, a noir book could
have him saving himself but leaving him psychically ruined.
--Dave Z.
--- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, "jacquesdebierue"
<jacquesdebierue@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, "davezeltserman" <davezelt@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not disagreeing that comic books can't be noir, but I think
> > there's a BIG difference between (tragedy, gothic gloom, darkness) and
> > noir. Tragedy can involve a heroic act or simply inevitability. My
> > definition of noir involves a damning, a character giving into his
> > baser instincts and weaknesses and dooming himself either psychically
> > or physically. I look at The Dark Night (a movie that I thought was
> > great) as more of a tragedy. Batman/Bruce Wayne may feel conflicted,
> > but his motivations are still to do what he feels is the right thing,
> > and ultimately he sacrifices a large part of himself for what he feels
> > is the common good. You don't typically see self-sacrifice in noir.
>
> It isn't always a damning by the character's weakness... sometimes
> it's just the individual, defenseless, in the middle of a course of
> events that swallows him. The work of Franz Kafka is the model for
> this type of noir, let's say, non-Dostoyevskian noir, ir K-noir (for
> Josef K.). The great Italian writer Dino Buzzati has written much in
> this vein, both short stories and novels (notably The Desert of the
> Tartars). One of his best stories, Sette Piani (Seven Stories) has a
> quintessential defenseless individual.
>
> One can be fucked for many reasons, but personal weakness is only one
> of them. You can just be fucked by circumstances. You are caught as in
> a spider's web. This point of view is realistic, in my opinion. Humans
> are no more than an accident, they don't control anything.
>
> It is likely that writers like Kafka and Buzzati would say that
> everybody is defenseless, that there is no assurance about anything.
> Even in the country that invented _life_ insurance. The optimism of
> countrol is a sham, in other words. That would be the point of view of
> this type of noir, which was also (sometimes) practiced by Woolrich.
> The other type (Goodis) is tied to sin and is less modern.
>
> Part of the talent of Jason Starr has been in combining both types of
> noir in one narrative. For example, innocent guys get trapped and then
> lose it, they go into Dostoyevski-noir.
>
> Best,
>
> mrt
>
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