--- Terrill Lankford <
lankford2000@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I suppose I should have been more specific
yesterday
> in my complaint that "dead, in jail, or
insane"
> seems too limited as a qualification for
the
> protagonists' fate at the end of a story to
qualify
> it as noir. I think there are probably as many
noir
> stories (and certainly films) that end with
the
> protagonist paying a severe price through the
loss
> of a loved one or someone he hoped to protect
or
> some other psychological price (far short
of
> insanity) as there are stories that end with
the
> aforementioned "big three."
Now that's an articulate argument and by argument I mean
exchange of ideas and not anything hostile. If I seemed to
snap at you, I apologize. There's been a lot of sniping and
anger on this list and sometimes getting information across
can be difficult.
Here's my dilemma. When Nino Frank and the other French
critic mentioned "noir" in their 1946 articles, they were
making an off-hand reference -- a gesture -- to a film form
already in existence in France and other countries. It is
that definition that I think defines noir. Yes, it is
extremely narrow but so are many definitions, especially in
film (Italian Neo-Realism comes to mind).
Many of the people who wrote about noir later just seemed to
lump every black and white US crime film into the mix. That's
why some people roll "The Asphalt Jungle," "The Blue Dahlia"
and "A Lonely Place" as film noir but I, for the life of me,
can't see the commonality. So -- if you're concerned with
consistency -- please tell me where the consistency is in
including these three films as noir.
I basically agree with your post on
> THE CONVERSATION. I just wanted to point out
that
> the "big three" don't always apply to the climax
or
> a noir or neo-noir or post-noir or whatever
hair
> needs to be split.
>
Well I think there is need for the idea of post-noir and it
seems consistent and logical. As Antonioni and Fellini moved
past their roots, so did the influence of noir and I don't
mean in the mimicry of a style that appeared in very few true
noir films. And maybe I'm a purist in that sense, but the big
three were the basis of the original theory. Were there
variants? Maybe but I can't think of one.
And again, I apologize if I went off. This list can do that
to a person.
William
Essays and Ramblings
<http://www.williamahearn.com>
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