At 06:22 PM 29/07/2007, you wrote:
>miker wrote:
>
>"You mention the moral aspect and the end justifying
the means as a
>possible indication of craziness (you didn't exactly
say that, but I'm
>twisting your words to fit my need), but as much as
it is denigrated,
>the end-justifying-the-means stands fairly solid in
the school of
>ethics. We've also established that people can do
some pretty nasty
>stuff without being crazy. I'm not arguing here. Just
rolling it all
>around."
And Mike replied:
>Me, too, kind of working out my definition as we
discuss it, trying to
>put into words what was essentially a gut
reaction.
>
>I don't think you're twisting my words, pretty much
agree with what
>you're saying here. In fact, it made me realize
something that had been
>missing from what I wrote, something that was kind of
nagging at me.
>For me, psycho noir's not just about ends justifying
the means, but also
>the ends that are being justified. For the
psycho/sociopath, the ends
>are always focused on the betterment and/or enjoyment
of self, with
>others just as pawns for the psycho's fun. And it's
more fun for the
>psycho (and reader?) when that betterment comes at
the expense of
>someone else.
Are you sure it's not the drain you're circling in this
discussion?
Ends vs. means are moral considerations whether evaluated by
a priest or a psychologist. In either case, the sinner or
psycho (the individual, or small collective) has behaved in
ways unacceptable or incomprehensible to the larger
collective in which she/he finds him/herself. Ethics and
psychosis overlap because they extend from the same culture.
Of course, just as laws vary from one political jurisdiction
to another and are not always accepted with unanimity within
jurisdictions, ethics, morality and psychosis vary.
I'm sure there are books written in which the protagonist is
doomed for this reason, but that is not, alone, what makes
them noir. Tragedy perhaps, but not noir. Then again, there
are books that are noir, showing that immoral or unethical or
psychotic behaviour is one of the many ways in which the
characters meet their doom. In noir the characters are doomed
regardless of whether their behaviour is moral, normal,
ethical or otherwise. This does not preclude free will, and
we could argue that noir is about what choices people make
while faced with their inevitable doom. You can step in front
of that train, or be pushed, or push others ahead of you, or
step forward and then back, tempting fate. You can try to run
away but the road always circles back to the track, or one
just like it (hard to tell for sure.) You can sit beside the
track and pretend the train doesn't exist, consider whether
it matters or doesn't matter, or imagine that when the train
hits you will be transported to another land without trains
and tracks. You can join a support group for train phobics.
Whole bunch of things you can do, but eventually that train
will get you. Just the way things are.
Whoo Whoo, Kerry
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