At 12:42 AM 20/12/2006 +0000, Jim wrote:
> It's dark and sinister.
>But it's also a place where a determined individual
can win out, or
>where Fate can take a hand.
Sorry Jim. He said optimists will NOT find what they're
looking for in noir.
>NO he's saying that what you've described the dark,
sinister quality
>is an inherent part of the landscape in noir, "at
home" in noir as
>Duhamel puts it, whereas, in traditional mysteries,
it exists only to
>provide a contrast with conventional
morality.
Yes, I believe you've just said what I said about what he
said. Cool.
>No, it suggests that the dark and sinister quality is
an inherent
>part of noir, not an anomalous element as it is in
traditional
>mysteries. Which is what I've always said.
Actually, I don't think I've every heard or read you saying
that, but if so, I'm happily wrong, because here you're
saying that the dark and sinister quality is more than
atmospherics, which are invoked in many other forms of
literature, possibly embodied in them all in the form of the
antagonist. The phrase "dark and sinister" is by itself
inadequate, being too general.
And I think the difference is more than degree- as you say:
inherent as opposed to anomalous. What makes a dark and
sinister atmosphere inherent in noir? Others have suggested
it is that the characters, chiefly the protagonist is doomed,
or screwed, but I agree with you that this is too narrow.
Often the protagonist appears to triumph, solving his case or
whatever. But in noir the case may be solved, but at a price
for the protagonist, or the story is resolved in such a way
as to illustrate the ultimate limitations of human existence.
Good may be served for the moment, but evil remains to take
it's pound of flesh perhaps in other ways, or at other times.
This is why I've suggested that noir can be defined as
non-transcendent, as opposed to other forms of
literature.
I don't think anyone on the list is saying that noir and
hardboil are mutually exclusive, or have I missed
something?
Best, Kerry
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