On Sep 5, 2006, at 11:34 AM, david david wrote:
> i think i once read where Cain said he wrote
Postman
> Always Rings Twice before he'd read Hemingway.
Does
> anyone know if that's right?
Cain does, but he ain't talkin'...
and Jim wrote:
> I could also have added Cleve Adams (though, no
doubt,
> you'd dismiss him as being from "a more
conservative
> era").
Well, I wouldn't dismiss him but yeah, he certainly did come
from a generally more conservative era. Like it or not (and
some conservatives definitely don't), the United States is
generally a far more liberal and tolerant society -- even
with conservatives currently running the game -- than it used
to be back in the "good old days" when Prather and Spillane
(or Adams) were selling books.
> Sticking strictly to PI and strictly to
contemporary
> writers, than a few who, at least to me, seem to
bat
> right-handed (and I haven't really discussed
politics
> with any of them) are Jerry Kenneally, C.J.
Henderson,
> Wayne Dundee, Gary Lovisi, and W. Glenn
Duncan.
>
> Does two short stories qualify me? If so, I'm
a
> current conservative PI guy, and compared to you,
I
> probably qualify as "extreme-right."
Personally I think you're a pussycat. And generally far too
smart to be extreme-anything.
> My point, though, wasn't really that there was
an
> equal amount of right-wingers and
left-wingers.
Well, you did say "The thing is, there are JUST AS MANY
conservative to extreme right-wing (hard-boiled)
writers..."
Most people would consider "just as many" to mean
"equal."
Just as the same people would understand that if I said that
there are currently more apples than oranges, it wouldn't
necessarily follow that I meant that oranges don't
exist.
> ...there are enough hard-boiled (even
limiting
> it to PI) writers who have a conservative bent,
that
> it really can't be said that the hard-boiled
(or
> hard-boiled PI) story is inherently left-wings,
or
> inherently a vehicle for leftist
commentary.
Which wasn't anything close to what I said. Or what I
believe. One of the beauties of the P.I. genre (or any good
fiction) is its ability to bring complicated social and
political issues down to the human level and examine them
from many angles.
Which is why the work of essentially humourless ranters like
Paretsky or Spillane, with their trimmed-to-fit stereotypes,
grates on me more than the work of more open and questioning
writers like Mosley, Shannon, Lippman, Pelecanos, et
al.
Sure, they and their work may ultimately land on the left
side of the line, but not before humanizing an issue, and
hopefully giving all sides a fair shake. It's more the way
they tell their stories (bigger on hard questions than easy
answers) that makes them a joy for me to read.
> (Warren) Murphy's rants against political
correctness, big
> government, affirmative action, etc, are sprinkled
all
> through the Trace/Digger books, and in what
is
> arguably his best PI novel, the stand-alone
THE
> CEILING OF HELL, we get a very conservative
hero
> (notwithstanding that the villain is a
right-wing
> whacko).
Well, the excesses of political correctness (a self-mocking
term originally coined by liberals themselves), big
government and affirmative action have all been fair game
(and deservedly so) for a lot of writers on both sides of the
coin. I haven't read CEILING OF HELL, but Trace/Digger, the
alcoholic and frequently deadbeat dad who can't even remember
his kids' names, hardly seems a poster boy for conservative
values, sleeping around when he can, fiddling the books and
living (in sin) with a woman who works for a living (and
isn't white).
Nah, at most, I see Trace/Digger as an apolitical,
hypocritical equal- opportunity curmudgeon who delights in
skewering everyone, more Groucho Marx than Rush Limbaugh, the
kind of guy who lights up a smoke under a "No Smoking" sign,
all the while decrying the disrespect for law and order and
the lack of civility and manners in modern society. I can't
even imagine him even registering to vote.
> ...it's simply wrong to conclude that
> the genre he (Spillane), and others who tended the
same way
> politically, is inherently left-wing.
Again, I never said that. Ever. Because it is wrong.
> You seem to be assuming that, because I object to
the
> notion that hard-boiled or PI stories have an
inherent
> political bias, that I'm arguing in favor of
a
> particular polticial opinion.
Actually, you're the one doing most of the assuming. You're a
conservative -- so what? My point was simply that that it
seemed to me that the majority of P.I. novels THESE DAYS that
bother to lean at all politically tend to lean to the
left.
And incidentally, mostly seem to outsell your list of guys,
some of whom haven't written a P.I. novel for ages. (I'd love
to be corrected on that -- I loved Kenneally and Duncan's
stuff, just as I miss Jerome Doolittle's series.
Obviously, that doesn't mean there aren't P.I. writers that
swing to the right -- just that I don't feel they in the
majority right now, or that the pendulum might not swing back
the other way.
> I certainly have a
> political opinion, but I'm not arguing in favor of
it
> here. I'm merely pointing out that there have
been,
> and are, hard-boiled PI writers whose
political
> opinions tended to be conservative.
So who's arguing with you about that? Certainly not me.
> If someone suggested that the hard-boiled PI story
is
> inherently right-wing (and it seems to me there was
a
> book about the genre that did just that) because
of
> writers like Spillane, Prather, Adams, Dundee,
etc,
> would you conclude that I was waving the flag
for
> liberalism if I pointed out that Dennis Lynds,
Sara
> Paretsky, and Roger L. Simon were anything
BUT
> right-wing?
No, of course not. But you keep arguing against a point I
never made.
> My point is not that the hard-boiled PI story
is
> conservative, but that it's a framework
that
> conservatives can work within just as easily
as
> liberals. Or those who are apolitical, for
that
> matter.
Now you've got it. Very good.
> I never said there weren't left-wing PI writers.
I
> said that neither hard-boiled crime stories
in
> general, nor the PI story in particular,
were
> inherently leftist, and that there are
enough
> conservative hard-boiled writers generally, and
PI
> writers specifically, to disprove such a
notion.
Exactly. Looks like you're the one getting smarter.
Kevin Burton Smith The Thrilling Detective Web Site http://www.thrillingdetective.com
RARA-AVIS home page: http://www.miskatonic.org/rara-avis/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rara-avis-l/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
rara-avis-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : 06 Sep 2006 EDT