At 11:34 AM 07/05/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>He paints, we interpret. There is something there we
can still learn.
Well put, though I don't think we've been debating
Hemingway's stylistic contributions to literature.
On a thematic note, I'd suggest that Hemingway wrote about
the human dependence upon returning to and persisting with
human ideals (love, duty, faith, hope) even as the world
crumbles around us. Conrad was more about confronting the
aspects of human nature that inevitably defeat those
ideals
(while making them essential.) I think there's a context
that's important here too. Conrad wrote from a segment of
western culture that was roughly at the peak of, and perhaps
the beginnings of disillusionment with, empire. Hemingway
wrote from within an empire still in ascendence. Not to say
he didn't approach the subject with misgivings, which is why
I thought it trite and condescending to reduce the Hemingway
theme to "grace under pressure."
From the noir perspective, I think, these two themes
knowingly consider two sides of the same human characteristic
and are mutually dependent. If it were not for our dedication
to the notion that we are in a position to understand and
"improve" the world as we find it, there would be no noirish
tales describing the myriad ways in which we come up short,
and therefore no need for romantic yarns that will inspire
readers with the hope that we'll get it right the next time
around, or that we'll acquire sufficient skill or power to
overcome evil the next go round, and hence no noirish stories
about what we are willing to do in our pursuit of power, and
on and on. This, in my view, is the dilemma of the human
condition, which I take from reading people like Hamingway
and Conrad, and from the observation that neither my family
dog, nor any other of the creatures on earth (so far as I
know) are motivated by the belief that it is their
responsibility to improve the world, yet seem to get on as
well as not, at least until they confront humanity.
>On the macho bit I suggest you re-read White
Elephants. Is there any
>possible doubt where his sympathy lies, the macho man
or "the girl."
>Hemingway writes to the human condition and his
vision is dark. Thus in
>a sense he can be considered a noir writer. Is there
a darker tale than
>Indian Camp?
Okay (haven't read it,) but in other cases one might say that
Hemingway finds the persistence of human ideals to be
inspirational (Farewell to Arms, perhaps.) I note your "in a
sense" qualifier, and take it to mean
"not in the sense of genre definition," as we've thus far, I
think, defined noir as those stories that consider dark
themes within the specific context of crime. In that sense,
Hemingway's only noir story would be The Killers. Does this
indicate that it's time to reconsider this qualifier? (O no!
Not the great definitions debate again.)
Anyway, I agree that the similarity of themes illustrates yet
again why crime writing is such a worthwhile literary
pursuit. Crime is where individuals confront the application
of many communal ideals.
Best, Kerry
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