Dare I add another opinion on Pelecanos? Hell, yes!
I've really enjoyed the back and forth going on here about
his work. I'm envious of it too. It's better to be talked
about than ignored, the saying goes. Lord knows, I wish you
were all yammering about my books. Like many, I admire the
way Pelecanos writes, his descriptions, his eye for detail,
and the simple fact that he gets me turning pages faster than
just about any writer out there. I don't know if he's a great
writer, but he sure is good, and damn fun to read. Maybe
that's why I overlook some of the quibbles stated in the
list, some that I agree with. One unstated quibble I have is
that most of his books seem to have similar plots and build
to the same explosively violent outcomes. Maybe this is
because I've read just about every book Pelecanos has written
-- but still, those pages do keep turning. That's why I'll
keep buying and reading. It's also why a friend and I are
headed to his book signing at the Mystery Bookstore in LA
next weekend. I can't wait to meet him.
Which leads to another subject: Mike, what did you think of
LA? Did you visit any other mystery bookstores besides
Terrill's? I want to hear all the gory details.
Mark
-----Original Message----- From:
owner-rara-avis@icomm.ca [mailto:
owner-rara-avis@icomm.ca] Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002
1:56 PM To:
rara-avis-digest@icomm.ca Subject: RARA-AVIS Digest V4
#122
RARA-AVIS Digest Saturday, March 9 2002 Volume 04 : Number
122
In this issue:
Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil/Sacred
cows
Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil/Sacred
cows
Re: RARA-AVIS: Crumley (was Shame the
Devil/Sacred cows)
Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
RE: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE DIGEST VERSION OF THE LIST: Send
the message unsubscribe rara-avis-digest to
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 21:03:30 +0100 From: Thomas Bauduret
<
suspiria@club-internet.fr> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re:
Dr. Smith
le 9/03/02 18:51,
WordRunner@aol.com
WordRunner@aol.com a crit:
>
> In a message dated 3/9/02 11:58:06 AM,
phm@midsouth.rr.com writes:
>
> << Well I'm feeling mightly lonely out here in
seeing flaws in Pelecanos.
I
>
> kinda feel like I stepped into the middle of a
Pelecanos appreciation
>
> society meeting. >>
>
> You stated your strongly held opinions and others
stated theirs.
> Nobody's mad at anybody, and as far as I can tell,
we're all just agreeing
to
> disagree.
>
Don't you think the world would be pretty boring if we all
had the same tastes and agree on everything ? :)
Besides, there's a big difference between saying "I don't
like this" and
"this is crap"
T.
http://www.cinebis.org/
"Le cinma de B Z"
**************************************************************************
http://vsolutions.free.fr/anews.php3
Any Other Solutions : Nick Cave, :Wumpscut:, Elysian Fields,
Depeche Mode, The Cure, Jack The Ripper, Sparklehorse, Deine
Lakaien,Peter Gabriel, The Sisters of Mercy, VNV Nation, Icon
of Coil, Das Ich, Radiohead, Assemblage 23, Copenhagen
###########################################################################
"Je ne peux m'empcher de trembler alors que la lame du
scalpel descend lentement vers ma gorge" Ne m'enterrez pas
trop vite, un roman noir de Patrick Eris Disponible chez http://www.edibook.com/
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:09:25 -0600 From: "a.n.smith" <
ansmith@netdoor.com> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr.
Smith
> Since the subject heading refers to our newest
Doctor, I must ask
> whether any of the stories in his creative disser.
were the sort that the
> Birds here would find interesting. (IE do disser.
committees let one do
> good crime fiction these days?) Oh, congrats of
course...
I tended to keep the crime writing and lit writing separate
at school
(although I'm always trying to blend them, the profs were a
little picky, even though they thought highly of my love of
crime writing and my work in the area), but one story I
published at Barcelona Review
(barcelonareview.com) was borderline. Actually, the
diss/collection covered another of my
obsessions--Pentecostals.
Thanks for the kind words, everyone. I did, by the way,
desgnate American Hard-boiled as my major area and had to
take an exam focussed on it.
Neil Smith
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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:14:14 -0600 From: "a.n.smith" <
ansmith@netdoor.com> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the
Devil
> << It would be useful to put a critical eye
even on some list sacred cows
> sometimes. >>
>
> Hey Paul, read him or don't. We all have our
preferences, but my
> admiration of GP and my love of his work has nothing
to do with "sacred
cow"
> worship.
I think, Paul, that I wouldn't have answered the criticisms
had you said "I don't like this." But your thoughts touched
on specific areas of his writing, and I'm not sure how we
could come to such different conclusions. For example, I'll
admit that Fitzgerald can write well, and he probably
deserves his status, but, *man*, I hate GATSBY. Never liked
his other stuff, either, and I can nitpick it to death, but
I'd be outgunned by the swarms who think he's a god.
So it wasn't the personal dislike, but rather the idea that
he *objectively* isn't that good. I can't agree with
that.
NS
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 15:37:59 -0500 From: Kerry <
gsp.schoo@skylinc.net> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr.
Smith
At 10:52 AM 3/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
>George Upper wrote:
>about Pelecanos.
>I don't understand how anyone can find the
characters
>in SHAME THE DEVIL anything but
>well-drawn...................................
>
>
>Well I'm feeling mightly lonely out here in seeing
flaws in Pelecanos. I
>kinda feel like I stepped into the middle of a
Pelecanos appreciation
>society meeting. I at least waited until he was off
list before I mentioned
>anything critical of his work.
No, I thought your points interesting, in part because they
were contrary to what's customarily voiced here, and in part
because you explained what you found weak about the plot, and
then defended your point, though you did back off a
little.
I can recall only one response that actually addressed your
point about the preparation for the pizza-parlour heist, and
none that addressed your rebuttal. I wouldn't count saying
that you are wrong and that the respondent is a more
qualified authority, or that it's just a matter of opinion,
as addressing your point. That's not up to the usual high
level of debate here, IMHO, but maybe I missed something this
time around.
Personally, I've read one Pelecanos, A Firing Offense. I
liked his characterization. The people seemed real enough,
having made or making difficult decisions in their
uninspiring and corrupting jobs. I thought Pelecanos' style
clean, clear and unobtrusive. But I too thought the plot
weak. Minor characters were brought forward at the end,
indicating to me that they were disposable, which I seem to
recall they were.
I think I'll still read more of his work, but I found your
comments helpful.
Thanks Kerry
- ------------------------------------------------------
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The evil men do lives after them http://www.murderoutthere.com
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:46:13 -0600 From: "Paul Miller"
<
phm@midsouth.rr.com> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the
Devil
a n Smith wrote: I hate GATSBY. Never liked his other stuff,
either, and I can nitpick it to death, but I'd be outgunned
by the swarms who think he's a
god.....................................................
Well being outgunned doesn't make you wrong, watch more
westerns and see how often the good guy finds himself
outgunned. : ) Fitzgerald is no Faulkner of course.
So it wasn't the personal dislike, but rather the idea that
he *objectively* isn't that good. I can't agree with
that..........................................................
I understand. It's just my personal opinion that his
characters are wooden and the prose pedestrian. I don't
presume to speak for everyone because I already know that
many have a high opinion of his work. I certainly don't mean
to offend by offering a differing opinion and will keep quiet
on Pelecanos in future.
Paul Miller
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:54:47 -0600 From: "Pat Zeitoun"
<
pwz@tca.net> Subject: RARA-AVIS: Shame the
Devil/Sacred cows
I've been interested in this conversation since I am being
critical of one of my very favorite authors, James Crumley.
Has any one read Final Country and find it as disappointing
as I do?
PatZ
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:11:37 EST From:
WordRunner@aol.com Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr.
Smith
In a message dated 3/9/02 3:44:12 PM,
gsp.schoo@skylinc.net writes:
<< I wouldn't count saying that you are wrong and that
the respondent is a more qualified authority, or that it's
just a matter of opinion, as addressing your point. That's
not up to the usual high level of debate here, IMHO, but
maybe I missed something this time around. >>
If you missed anything, Kerry, it was
that in this situation, there wasn't any way to advance from
addressing each others opinions. They were too far apart. If
two people look at the same color and one sees black and the
other sees white, they can note the differences, but there
isn't much to discuss without doing extensive research,
writing a couple of dissertations
(and Neil's done with all that) and offering rebuttals.
I find GP's characters (even his
minor ones) amazingly true and alive, people I can see and
would know if I passed them on the street or heard them
on the phone. His plots seem straightforward and often
linear, (which I prefer) exciting, reasonable and real, the
kinds of stories that aren't contrived (except for a shoot
'em up ending or two) or constructed, but are driven by the
actions of those same fascinating characters.
When Paul read STD, he saw nothing
that even approximated any of this. All we can do is shake
our heads and wonder how the other guy can possibly see what
he sees..
Jim
Blue
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:18:11 -0600 From: "M Blumenthal"
<
blumenidiot@21stcentury.net> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS:
Re: Dr. Smith
Paul Miller:
>
> Well I'm feeling mightly lonely out here in seeing
flaws in Pelecanos. I
> kinda feel like I stepped into the middle of a
Pelecanos appreciation
> society meeting. I at least waited until he was off
list before I
mentioned
> anything critical of his work.
Paul, If you check the archives you would find I critized
Pelecanos' work often on this list, but it was mainly because
he writes about things that he is very knowledgable and
interested in like modern music or cars which I don't really
care about. Even though a reference may be very obscure, he
includes it to satisfy himself because he feels it will add
something to the understanding of a character's personality.
. Obviously, considering the books' endings plots are not his
greatest strength, but I feel characters and setting
are.
Its good for the list to have somrone criticize one of its
favorites. After this furor dies down time try taking on
Willeford. Mark
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:14:08 EST From:
WordRunner@aol.com Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the
Devil
In a message dated 3/9/02 3:52:51 PM,
phm@midsouth.rr.com writes:
<< I certainly don't
mean to offend by offering a differing opinion and will keep
quiet on
Pelecanos in future. >>
No offense taken and please don't keep quiet about anything
on my account. I enjoy reading your posts.
Jim
Blue
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:29:52 EST From:
WordRunner@aol.com Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr.
Smith
In a message dated 3/9/02 4:14:12 PM,
blumenidiot@21stcentury.net writes:
<< he writes about things that he is very knowledgeable
and interested in like modern music or cars which I don't
really care about. Even though a reference may be very
obscure, he includes it to satisfy himself because he feels
it will add something to the understanding of a character's
personality. . >>
I said earlier that I had quibbles
with George P, and this is one of them. I think that the
overlisting and reiteration (I know it is post modern mantra
to do so, but I don't care) of song titles, rock groups, the
sizes of
restaurant checks, and bar tips, etc., is distracting and too
much author showoff stuff. He's so good that it makes me
grind my teeth every time I find him being an auteur.
However, I believe this stuff appears with less frequency and
is less intrusive in his more recent work, so either he is
toning it down or I'm getting immune to the problem.
Jim
Blue
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:44:52 EST From:
BaxDeal@aol.com Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the
Devil/Sacred cows
In a message dated 3/9/02 12:53:39 PM,
pwz@tca.net writes:
<< I've been interested in this conversation since I am
being critical of one
of my very favorite authors, James Crumley. Has any one read
Final Country
and find it as disappointing as I do? >>
Other than the brilliant THE LAST GOOD KISS, or perhaps
because of, I find much of Crumley disappointing.
John Lau
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:51:45 -0500 (EST) From:
DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net (Mark Sullivan) Subject: Re:
RARA-AVIS: Crumley (was Shame the Devil/Sacred cows)
John wrote:
"Other than the brilliant THE LAST GOOD KISS, or perhaps
because of, I find much of Crumley disappointing."
Last Good Kiss is one of my very favorite novels. I think his
next, Dancing Bear, was also excellent, but I feel they have
gone steadily downhill since then, although I haven't read
his latest.
Mark
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:58:42 -0600 From: "M Blumenthal"
<
blumenidiot@21stcentury.net> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS:
Re: Dr. Smith
Jim Blue:
. He's so good that it makes me grind my teeth every time
I
> find him being an auteur. However, I believe this
stuff appears with less
> frequency and is less intrusive in his more recent
work, so either he is
> toning it down or I'm getting immune to the
problem.
>
>
Jim, I had the same reaction to the first book of his I read,
King Suckerman, but I persevered and now sort of glide over
and ignore it. I'd like to say he has really toned it down,
but objectively I can't. Mark
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:55:53 -0500 (EST) From:
DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net (Mark Sullivan) Subject: RE:
RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
Anthony wrote:
"It's purely an arbitrary and objective concept. It would be
so much easier if it was subjective, but that's never going
to be so. And yeah, I know there's a lot of literary terms we
can blow up each others' ass to make it should all scientific
too. But the song remains the same."
While I tend to agree with the underlying notion here that
art criticism is largely an exercise in rationalizing
personal gut reactions, haven't subjective and objective been
reversed here? How can something be both arbitrary and
objective?
Mark
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:57:27 +1100 From: "Rene Ribic"
<
rribic@optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re:
Dr. Smith
>
> As I've yet to delve into Mr. P's ouvre, I can't add
much to this
discussion
> other than to say I believe it's healthy to voice
one's opinion, no
matter
> how contrary. Heck, it doesn't even have to be an
informed opinion-
as those
> can lead to some mighty entertaining rejoinders. I'm
certainly not
afraid to
> say what I think, no matter how idiotic or
inflammatory it may be.
>
Hear, hear. I've yet to read George P myself but if I do
& I don't like him I may keep the info to myself. On the
other hand Paul's comments certainly seem to have woken up
this sleepy list. Stick by your .45s Paul. If everybody
agreed on everything life would be unbearably dull & so
would this list.I may not agree with what you say .... etc,
etc. Me, I've got my shotgun loaded for the next time Mike R
makes an anti-Thompson crack. There are limits, after
all.
Rene
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End of RARA-AVIS Digest V4 #122
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