---
Scatalogic@aol.com wrote:
> This seems a very bizarre argument to have on
a
> "hard boiled" list. I can see
> both sides meself: yes indeed the hardboiled hero
is
> traditionally male, he
> is not worthy of any praise.
Some are (Marlowe, Archer) some aren't (Spade, Parker) some
are, but in complicated kinds of ways (Crumley's
protagonists, for instance).
I don't understand why
> Marlowe is continually
> referred to as a hero? He is a hideous
character:
> amoral, motivated entirely
> by financial return and self serving; fair enough.
I
> spose that the nature of
> the genre makes this to a certain extent
> innevitable, however, the idea that
> he is in any way laudable is quite frankly
bollocks.
MT's response to this is mine too.
>
> I don't think that it's more than a reflection
of
> society that women are
> cheated like shite on a bike in such
literature.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you're saying
something like "misogyny is present to some extent in hb
fiction, and it's simply a reflection of society" I think I
can agree with that.
But
> I do find it a little
> worrying that this is accepted by so
many!
Well, I don't think anyone here's accepting misogyny. I think
the problem is that these sorts of discussions get all
muddled up with "hb as Male Fantasy" (which I think is
self-evident), so other concerns come into play. Nobody wants
their fantasy adulterated to serve political ends, for
instance.
Is
> Chandler a moral
> philosopher???? Nope. He is a writer of
entertaining
> detective stories.
Basically agree.
>
> Noire/hardboiled is attractive to me because
I
> accept that to a certain
> extent "this is how it is,"
Have never bought this. I think hb/noir, with rare
exceptions, is as "fake" as any other genre -- it just tries
to be "realistic", a far different thing from being truthful.
(As a sidenote, I've never been interested in versimilitude
in the genre -- I don't care if a hb story is "truthful", I
just want it to be
"believable". I've come to think that one of the reasons I
dislike Joe Gores's DKA series is that it's pretty
true-to-life, and I find the truth uninteresting.)
> I consider James Ellroys personal politics;
hateful,
> intelectually dishonest
> (if we gonna chuck intellects around) and
> hippocritical, and also to a
> certain extent at odds to the material he
writes.
Agreed. Ellroy the person is a pain in the ass.
by the
> way I hate Mickey Spillane
> - surely even the most objectionable biggot on
the
> block must not be beyond
> parody himself? Shame he is self parodying
really.
Poor Mickey, still getting knocked about. :) I like Spillane
-- at his best I find him quite powerful.
(First chapter of ONE LONELY NIGHT comes to mind -- shame the
rest of the book isn't that good, but that first chapter, if
published seperately, could be one of the great PI stories).
I discount the politics here the same way I discount John
Wayne's -- I don't care what Wayne believed, it doesn't
interfere with my love of SANDS OF IWO JIMA (name your own
favorite Wayne movie).
> Well there you go, I actually hope that this
will
> provke some debate. Hard
> Boiled is generally hugely and nastily
anti-female,
> this is a FACT. It's not
> a problem and I believe that it's a reflection
of
> society.
>
I wouldn't use such strong language decribing the state of
affairs, but I basically agree, I guess. Point is, I don't
care. I find it a meaningless debate, actually -- it doesn't
tell me anything about the quality of this or that
writer.
My take on female PIs is that I have nothing against the
notion in theory, but in practice it seems too often like a
contrivance. (Outside of Angie in Dennis Lehane's work.) Most
seem to me to be just "chicks with dicks", basically
unconvincing females and unconvincing PIs. Marcia Muller is
the female PI writer I know best -- her work is incredibly
dull, basically Ross Macdonald-lite.
Women have written in the genre before, and have written
well. I'm sure there are good female authors int the genre
now out there now that I don't know about. I'm sure there
will be more in the future. But the general preponderance of
men in this genre (just like the general preponderance of
women in the
"traditional mystery genre") probably says something about
something. I would say it's only important to the extent you
want to make it so.
doug
===== Doug Bassett
dj_bassett@yahoo.com
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