okay i need to jump in here. if we are going to write fiction
with any sincerity to the language of the street we need not
be afraid to use harsh language. what, are we going to lie
about how folks communicate with one another? you cite
ellroy's language as being offensive. is the use of the words
nigger or spick offensive to you?? i am a white dude and
every time i walk down to the liquor store the local youth
greets me with "wassup nigger? you drinkin' a 40 tonight?" is
it offensive when donald goines uses the word nigger?
language changes, meanings change. what i find offensive is
charles willeford, for example. in pick up and wild wives all
the women are neurotic, drug/alchohol addled whores who are
un able to take care of themselves. they need some man to
take care of them. and whats up with shark infested custard?
betting on who can get the chick, all that. i find that
offensive. not the language but the ideas. i had an idea in
my head but lost the train of thought. i shouldn't be so
harsh on chas willeford...i guess he's writing it as he sees
it..
>From:
DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net (Mark Sullivan)
>Reply-To:
rara-avis@icomm.ca
>To:
rara-avis@icomm.ca
>Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: Re: Those were the days (was
Creationism vs.
>Evolution (was Once more...)
>Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 01:03:30 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Tribe wrote:
>
>"I'm certainly not gonna defend Ellroy's use of
language and the like.
>It bugs some readers and others like his stuff
notwithstanding (count me
>among the later). But Mark, I'm sure you're not
saying that because
>things weren't kosher back then, they shouldn't be
written about."
>
>You're right, I'm not saying that. My problem with
Ellroy is not his
>use of epithets, but his uncritical use of them
(uncritical as in
>simplistic; I'm not saying he should automatically
criticize any use of
>harsh words; casual dismissal is as uncritical as
casual acceptance).
>By setting his books in a time when those words and
attitudes were more
>acceptable, often endorsed, and insisting he is using
the words simply
>for temporal verisimilitude, Ellroy is sidestepping
the issues of
>writing and using those words in the 1990s. Authors
like Lansdale use
>the "N" word fairly often, but are aware of its
shadings when coming
>from different mouths.
>
>"If anything, the more things change, the more they
remain the same in
>terms of language, un-correct depictions of women and
minorities and the
>like. Hell, just look at the RICO suit filed against
the LAPD."
>
>Agreed, much of the LAPD seems to hold many of the
same views, but the
>public perception of those attitudes is very
different. Which makes it
>a fascinating issue to explore. There's a complexity
of attitudes (and
>questions about being open about or hiding those
attitudes) that offers
>numerous possibilites for characters and plot. As a
matter of fact,
>isn't this the issue Pelecanos means to explore in
his next book?
>
>"Chandler didn't write about those attitudes in
stronger terms 'cause he
>just couldn't get away with it back then. Even so,
Marlowe could use the
>racial epithets with the best of 'em."
>
>I agree with this, too. Although some of
Chandler/Marlowe's comments
>bother me, I can understand them in context and set
them aside.
>Chandler was a man of his time. However, Ellroy is
also a man of his
>time and that time is now. He is not a writer of the
'50s using those
>words, but a man of the '90s, choosing to write about
the '50s, so he
>can glibly use those words and dance away whenever he
is criticized for
>it.
>
>However, I am not saying '90s values should be
imposed upon the past if
>that is the setting. I think Mosley walks that line
very carefully (of
>course, his main theme revolves around questions of
changes in racial
>treatment so he engages the questions I think Ellroy
ducks). All I'm
>saying is that I've come to question why Ellroy's
books are always set
>in the past; it makes me wonder if he might not think
of it as a golden
>age of sorts.
>
>Now I thought the world of the LA Quartet, but this
tendency really
>started to annoy me in American Tabloid. I am even
willing to admit
>that I may be letting his obnoxious public persona
flavor some of my
>disillusionment. I know I won't go to any more of his
signings, but I
>wonder if I will actually skip his next book. Wasn't
it Garcia Marquez
>who said he always swore he wouldn't read the next
Borges because of the
>author's right wing politics, but when the book
actually came out, he
>couldn't help himself, since Borges was such a good
writer?
>
>Mark
>
>--
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