My compliments to all for sustaining such interesting dialogue. I like the way that we worry definitions AND endorse or put down certain writers. Scholarly qualifications are balanced by fans' enthusiasms. Let me add a few thoughts to the many: 1) Can we agree that "hard-boiled" (and "tough guy") usually refer to a main character (with an attitude), who is, in turn, usually a private investigator, or moonlights as one? I'm used to seeing "hard-boiled" always connected to "detective." a) But I would be the first to agree that the term "hard-boiled" has been put to various uses; witness its use in the John Woo film of that title. 2) Historically, hasn't "noir" or "serie noir" (paperbacks) sometimes referred to hard-boiled detective narratives (certainly in film it has), BUT ALSO included what Julian Symons and Tony Hilfer call the "crime novel"? So "noir" seems to be the larger category, including both sides of the law--or both sides of the crime. [I like the subtitle of Hilfer's 1990 U. Texas study: THE CRIME NOVEL: A DEVIANT GENRE.] 3) With those categories, one overlapping the other, one can speak of Hammett and Cain as "noir" or separate them into "hard-boiled detective" and "crime" categories. Depends where you want to go. But it's useful to maintain some distinctions in terms. 4) While hard-boiled detectives would seem most at home in the city, with the rest of the "wise guys," many noir fictions are located outside urban areas. Cain has been mentioned; Dorothy Hughes' RIDE THE PINK HORSE (and film), most of Jim Thompson, and the films FURY, HIGH SIERRA, and THEY DRIVE BY NIGHT all make the "noir" lists, but are located in small towns or the countryside. [I take my bearings here from Silver And Ward's excellent FILM NOIR, which they call in subtitle "the American Style," the one without antecedents in adventure fiction, thus made completely in America.] Speaking as a fan, I'm glad to see Patricia Highsmith mentioned. Tumbled to her after seeing Wenders' "American Friend," with Dennis Hopper playing Ripley, I believe. Those who want cheaper thrills of the same kind might try "Delacorta," whose novels feature Gorodish and Alba as aesthete criminals who frequently get away with murder. His first of the series was DIVA, popularized by the film, and then the rest follow, all 2-syllable-end-in-a titles (Nana, Luna, Lola...), in day-glo covers with fast-written, eventful plots. In VIDA, "Delacorta" pays homage to R. Chandler by taking most of his chapter titles out of THE LONG GOODBYE. Not bad, as pulp goes. See some of you at PCA in San Antonio. Bill Hagen billha@ionet.net - # RARA-AVIS: To unsubscribe, say "unsubscribe rara-avis" # to majordomo@icomm.ca